Bishop Jan SOBILO “Ukrainian people show to the world they want to be masters in their own country”
On February 21, Journalists of Radio Maria and Resurrection Live Radio talked with Bishop Jan Sobilo, Chairman of the Technical Committee of the Initiative “Pope for Ukraine,” auxiliary bishop of the Diocese of Kharkiv and Zaporizhzhya.
Serhiy Ivanytskiy: We have repeatedly announced your trip with Nuncio Claudio Gugerotti in Avdiyivka. I would like to hear your aftertaste reflections that remained in your heart, in your mind, of what you saw and heard. We know that you also met with Mr. Zhebrivskyi, governor of Donetsk region, met with the clergy, children, all those affected…
It was a very important meeting in Avdiyivka, in Kramatorsk and in other areas near the frontline. Lately, there is much shelling, so there are a lot of people afflicted by war, especially children. The children are still small, they do not understand politics, they do not understand why it is so scary. Although, there is more hope in their eyes than I’ve seen in adults. I remember one school, we entered, then the Nuncio and those who accompanied him looked at the children and the teacher who was full of despair, telling me what was happening… and I saw that the children here had a hope that everything would be over. And adults are exhausted by this situation.
So the Nuncio could see the real needs and damage caused by the war. And the fact that we need to be unanimous, above all people need our solidarity, know that Ukraine remembers them, that Ukraine is united in prayer with those afflicted. They are in a place where someone else may be, because we do not know what the situation will be like. So our solidarity of parishes – Greek and Roman Catholic, Orthodox, must be of the same kind the Protestants give us an example. The Protestant community indeed is not waiting for humanitarian organizations collecting among the faithful and pass, and always go there. Protestants have no problem with that. Unfortunately, it is different in our communities, and our believers often feel abandoned there. Here we must be more aligned, the same as politicians say a lot they have control over the situation, but people do not see it. They see that the situation is out of control.
S.I.: I think many people saw a photo on social networks and the media in which His Eminence Claudio Gugerotti, the Vatican Ambassador to Ukraine, stands his back turned onto the photographer and looks at the nine-storey building, and there is a hole three meters large… Tell us about the infrastructure of Avdiyivka, how does this place look now?
This is one of the numerous photos that could be made there because such scenes can be found at every step … A multi-storey house, some floors burned, no windows, holes like the one you saw, a hospital… Almost half of the windows have no glass, clapped over with wooden panel or planks. These images are multiple, because we just started to repair what remained after 2015, after the assaults, as already three weeks ago there was a huge shelling in Avdiyivka and it repeats from time to time. Therefore, one could make a huge album of these photographs. Indeed, the Christian Rescue Service, which works very well there, showed us the place in Avdiyivka that can be hardly repaired. There are people who live in the basement, there are those who have left, but there are also those who remain there without much help, trying to survive in these very difficult situations.
Halyna Babiy: The Initiative “Pope for Ukraine” opens other possibilities for children, they start from providing them protection and warmth, elementary humanitarian aid, and then opening the way to quality education, to the knowledge of the world. I think that in this segment of aid it is very important to pay attention to the future of Ukraine and Avdiyivki in particular, I mean, to children. And the parents must ensure their support along with those who came to help. What is your opinion?
True, and that is why the nuncio’s visit was intended to draw attention to the children, the issues of quality education. We were comforted that parents, almost all speak Russian and the children speak Ukrainian very well. In Avdiyivka, in the adjacent area … And indeed they already feel Ukrainian, they specifically want to speak Ukrainian. And a positive page of this war is that the people who live there, especially children and youth, focused specifically on how to be patriots of Ukraine. As some of them would not know exactly how can it be because these regions were somewhat forgotten – Luhansk, Donetsk regions, areas bordering on Russia, our presidents do not always pay attention to them. And now, thanks to the war, the children feel Ukrainian and now they need help so that they can graduate from a good school and there is hope that these children in the future will help us all, because they have a great experience living there and what they have survived through. But to data it is a real generation of Ukrainian youth who made their particular choice.
S.I .: You said there are pro-Ukrainian and patriotic sentiments. What can you say about the testimony of those people who are on the firing line? What do they say about militants, about Ukrainian soldiers, what do they generally think of the war, what they expect, do they want to flee from Avdiyivka or stay if no one knows what may happen next…?
After 2015, many people left and returned to Avdiyivka, because there is their home, apartment, they want to be in their own place. They know it is good all over Ukraine, they will be received, but it will be a solution for them for long because there is no job. They would like to live where there is a prospect. There are very poor prospects, there are at least some. The sentiment is Pro-Ukrainian and patriotic. They pray that our soldiers, Ukrainian did not leave them. They beseech that when there is shelling, the Ukrainian army left its soldiers in place, that they protect them locally, in Avdyiyvka and all localities. So the soldiers are really grateful to people who help, various organizations, churches, the UGCC, the Protestant community, the Orthodox, Roman Catholics – all who are helping soldiers.
Actually, I see that this is a phenomenon in the history of the world, where the defense of the homeland is ensured by people. The state is defended by all patriots who collect money, clothing, buy things for the soldiers, and the authorities follow the people. It is not the case everywhere, the government has the money and organizes the defense, and in Ukraine people organized themselves in a quicker more target-oriented way than the government, which was forced to accept the people’s initiative. Therefore, the Ukrainian people show they really want to be masters in their own country and people also show that love and support to soldiers.
And I see people pray and beseech, saying, “The main thing that our soldiers would not leave us, that they stayed with us, we are here because there are soldiers. If they leave, we know that the guys from the east will come and make a great trouble.” So this evidences the great prestige of the army, the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which enjoys support of people first of all. And the government, the President are only second, because if the government supported the army, and showed responsibility for our country in their e-declarations… because they hold assets and these assets are sizeable. If they wanted to support the Ukrainian army, now definitely there would be less victims, fewer boys would have died there in the east, because they were without helmets, without body armor. And the people in power have the money.
The people have assumed this responsibility and this is a great deed. If someone in the future will write the history, he will mention that this war was an example of how people can organize and support the armed forces who defend us. It is difficult to consider this issue from a perspective of the government’s attitude. But it is inspiring when you see that everything keeps going. And what we have today is not worse than it could be – we owe it to the people. The church and the people who rallied together, have supported and still support the troops, and the soldiers, despite the difficult situation there keep on defending their homeland as their own family.
H. B.: What further steps of the Initiative “Pope for Ukraine” are to be implemented soon, including in Avdiyivka?
We see that still there are needs. Avdiyivka is one of the cities affected. And there are no more and no less needy than in other areas, located on the front line. Father Andriy Buhvak, rector of the Catholic parish in Zaporizhia, is the director of Caritas Zaporizhia. He was in Avdiyivka when the shelling burst out, and when he returned, he said very well that was a real trouble, but the trouble is no less than in other areas.
There are volunteers who tell us what we should pay attention to. There is the Christian Rescue Service on the frontline, Mrs. Olena Rozvadovska, who works very well there. There are organizations that really function and have very good relationships with people who talk about their urgent needs, there is Caritas… Therefore, we have monitoring there because of the people who work there and live. And they report on what they need right now. Today it includes firewood, stoves, heaters, candles because in Avdiyivka there is electricity, but there are villages where there is no light, no gas due to attacks. And people need to buy kerosene lamps or candles. And we must bring them food packages.
Organizing medical stations is also a very important issue. And there is “Doctors without Borders,” an organization that functions there, it cannot get too close to the front line nearby, the authorities prohibit them, not Ukrainian ones, but their organization’s authorities. Therefore, we need doctors need that could come up there. This is what we pay attention to, as well as the projects sent to us in first place at the request of the Holy Father and the Archbishop Claudio Gugerotti, the Apostolic Nuncio, and we satisfy these necessities – provide medicine, health, bread and warmth in the houses. And now in a short time we will also the developments in IDPs. If there is no wave of immigrants to other areas adjacent to Kharkiv Dnipro, Zaporizhzhia, and people stay there, will send aid through various organizations there on the spot via the people who are constantly in Avdiyivka, Slovyansk and other locations along the front line.
H.B.: How should the government, the church and the media rally together in order that the occupied territory or the territory adjacent to the frontline received truthful information that would support this patriotism. How can manipulation of public consciousness be avoided in the rear, so that we do not lose faith, do not caught an information virus thrown from Moscow, be like it all was in vain, we have jumped on the Maidan, and now we come back to normal life?
Now I see a great opportunity for churches – the Roman, Greek Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant churches, to truly pray for Ukraine all together and when the authorities see that the Church is united and this unity will in the future give a good charge for people in power – it will be a huge change. For now, there is a great danger of discouragement in people: “I’m tired, we had the Maidan, we collected money and the authorities simply make profits on us …” And a lot of people who stood in the Maidan, are saying like, why we were standing in the cold, the boys died and the government is now making wrong decisions. And here we are, all churches should instill optimism, which is really hard, but the government also has a difficult situation, it is difficult for them to make a decision which would satisfy everyone, because the international situation is complicated. We do not know how America will speak with Russia, it is only one aspect. And here I see the challenge that the Churches spoke in unison, united in prayer and it will be the help, care, and support to the government and society. When people in all churches and communities hear one voice – the voice of love, encouragement, hope, the authorities will have power and we too …
In Germany after the war, the Germans had a very difficult situation, but the hope appeared that it can be started all over again, the thing they survived through were very bad, but something could be done. And therefore, all our denominations should come together in order to think about the future of Ukraine, its society and show with a heartfelt prayer that despite the different views that have been in the past, we want to come together and beg God for peace and prosperity for Ukraine. Then the Lord, seeing our love, our common prayer, will give us good rulers. Or even replace those in power. I pray and many people are praying so oligarchs who have huge assets gave them to the budget, let them retain a little for themselves but support the budget. I believe that if our government, starting from the top, really starts thinking about the people, only then we will see a big change and strong, beautiful Ukraine.
S.I.: And Zaporizhia is the frontline zone. You lead the Initiative “Pope for Ukraine,” there are many projects about which we read on the site, they are implemented, there is great hope that many things would literally survive through this project. If it were not for this project, many more deaths and tragedies would be. You see it all, you hear many stories, get to the sites shelled, seeing human grief. Could you share with us your own, perhaps even mystical experience – what gives you the inspiration to live and keep going, to believe that God holds you in His hands, that there is a certain tolerance, but also a certain grace of God …
I think, first of all, it is the meeting with religious people out there, in Donetsk, Luhansk. Even when I am talking to the guys when going to Donetsk, meeting from separatists on the route who control it. I look – we are all people, we are the same. The evil one arranged a very ugly business. But all of them are also the victims. I see that really, everywhere there are people who have a heart, have dreams, but some get in a very nasty place, in an unkind time. And love to all people who yesterday were with our guys in the Army, graduated from universities …
I met a person who is a big man in the “DPR”. He visited various churches in Ukraine, remembers the names of the fathers. He was a good worshipper, but now the war has put us on different sides of the barricades. And I was thinking that God, if we allow Him, He can put everything in the right place. I really would like to defend Ukraine, but in the way that Jesus said last Sunday: “Love your enemies.” It will be a victory for Ukraine, if we love enemies, the persons that propaganda made our enemies. And we love and not curse … we need to defend the homeland, but without the curse. And we must care how we can help them in the future. And the people who pay money in order to have a weapon in their hands and shot in the direction of Ukraine. And we must understand that this whole scenario was written by an evil spirit, the enemy. And when I travel and look at them, it is the way I see it.
So I am going there and I know that my prayer and consolation are intended to those to whom I go, whom I meet, when I am saying them all this I see them nodding their heads, so that is true. So I have no hatred in my heart. The evil one instills hatred, and we must remember this, because it is the only way we can level the road and the only way we can face the future with hope.
And it gives me strength, that everything may be well that God can align everything if we cooperate with Him. Our cooperation with God must be according to the Word, which he said, especially one passage from the Gospel: Love your enemies. And do not say: “Death to the enemies.” By this curse we invite death to ourselves, giving strength to the evil one with such wicked words. Love will win and Ukraine will be a very good state, which can be a model for our brothers from the East and from the West, the countries that are now bound by political conditions and do not care much what is going on here.
So I see the future in true Christian love that is free from the curse and all evil, and I see that the Lord wants Ukraine to show this is possible. It gives me strength, so I’m not afraid to go there. I know that the Lord has the greatest plans for Ukraine.
